Cbcradio/AIH. April 1, 2025
Part 2: U.S. Researchers,
U.S. Researchers
Guest: Steven Woolf
CH: Today, employees at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services waited in line to find out if they still had jobs. The Trump administration has laid off thousands of workers, as it implements an extremely broad reorganization of the department. It's the latest in a series of government actions that are upending the lives of American researchers -- funding cuts, firings, and new conditions on scientific study. And now, hundreds of scientists are speaking out. This week, nearly 2,000 researchers signed an open letter sounding the alarm over what they're calling a, quote, "wholesale assault on U.S. science.” Unquote. Dr. Steven Woolf is a professor at Virginia Commonwealth University, and one of the authors of the letter. We reached him in Fairfax, Virginia.
NK: Dr. Woolf, you and your colleagues have talked about a, quote, climate of fear right now. That you see real danger in this moment, as you put it. What is at stake right now in your view?
STEVEN WOOLF: Well, the issue that we're dealing with here is that the Trump administration's policies have been markedly degrading the functions of our government, different agencies. But the area that concerns us as scientists is that there is a, basically, destruction of a lot of the research capacity, not only within the federal government but at universities and research centres around the country. The United States has invested for about 80 years in building up its research capacity. And that's enabled the U.S. research enterprise to make great discoveries in cutting-edge medical treatments. Within weeks, the Trump administration has basically incapacitated a lot of those functions.
NK: And I think it's fair to say that many, if not most, Americans, regardless of their politics, the kinds of things you're describing, innovation, investment, setting a standard for the world, are the kinds that Americans would pride themselves on. So, what is it like to see that shift?
SW: Yeah, the problem is getting the American public to connect the dots. Many of them view this as some sort of bureaucratic reshuffling, some downsizing of employees in the federal government. And one of the reasons why we put out this statement to the American public is to help to raise awareness about how severely this will impact their lives. We explain that research is important for the economy, for businesses in terms of innovation, uh, weather forecasting, protecting the environment, even national security in terms of the military or, uh, intelligence gathering. But as a physician, what, what I and my colleagues are most concerned about is how this will affect the health of Americans. Part of our goal is to try to help the average American understand that if they have a heart attack, or their child is diagnosed with cancer, they're less likely to be getting cutting-edge treatments that will be available in other countries that are prioritizing research.
NK: And it's early, I know, in terms of response, but have you heard a response or reaction that leads you to believe those dots are being connected? That people are getting this message?
SW: Well, it's a heavily polarized country right now. So, when people like myself raise concerns about the direction the Trump administration is taking, there is a large sector of the population that is not happy with those kinds of comments. But on the other side, there is a large sector of Americans who appreciate the fact that somebody is actually speaking out. There is a climate of fear in a lot of these research institutions and universities where the leadership are in a very difficult place, and are not speaking out, trying to keep their heads down and avoid displeasing the administration because the government is placing a lot financial and legal pressure on universities and other research institutions. So, as a result, there's been a relative silence. Many of our professional organizations have not pushed back and spoken publicly about this. We reached out because we, as scientists, feel that the American public needs to know about what's happening, and also how this will affect their health.
NK: We're also hearing today, we're seeing mass layoffs at the Department of Health and Human Services. What are you hearing from your colleagues about what is happening there?
SW: The layoffs that are occurring today are apocalyptic in our field. These are major agencies that are responsible for the health of Americans. And large amounts of workers who have spent their careers trying to improve the health of Americans are being sent packing. We have an agency, for example, called the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality -- or AHRQ -- that is basically responsible for addressing the quality of health care in the United States. That agency has basically been clobbered, uh, and a large portion of the employees of that agency have been dismissed
NK: There are those -- and you hinted at this earlier in our conversation, doctor -- that, who would say, you know, that there's bloated bureaucracy, these things need to be trimmed back, and they think that the amount given to research has been too much over the years. What would you want to say to them?
SW: Well, I think there is a fair argument that there are inefficiencies in many of these agencies. But the way you address inefficiencies is a much more targeted approach. My analogy is if you have a car engine that's running inefficiently, you normally take it to a mechanic for a tune-up. In this case, what's happening is they're taking a sledgehammer and clobbering the engine, which does nothing to improve efficiency, and now the car doesn't work anymore. Uh, that's essentially what happened. There's, there's been very little attempt to actually improve the efficiency of these agencies. Instead, what's been done is simply to dramatically downsize them. Uh, and, and have made them basically, uh, dysfunctional. I think it's important for listeners to understand that there's two pieces to this. One is that these massive cuts are turning off the spigot for research But the second part is the censorship. This is where the government is imposing ideological and political agendas to interfere with what research questions scientists can investigate, what methods they can use for doing their studies, and how they’re, literally the words they can used in reporting the results. So, the very important principle of scientific independence that researchers across the world value is being threatened in this case.
NK: And here in Canada, we've certainly seen, just in the past week, stories about professors and researchers leaving the United States for Canada. Are you expecting that more of your colleagues will leave your country for ours?
SW: I think so. I think it's happening very rapidly. I personally know colleagues that are doing this. It's true for experienced researchers who are feeling the need to leave the country in order to continue to do independent scientific research. But it's also happening for our young people who are interested in a career in the sciences, uh, that are changing their minds about going to graduate school in the united states and looking elsewhere for their education. Uh, not least because the number of openings for graduate studies is decreasing as a result of these massive funding cuts
NK: Dr. Woolf, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
SW: Thank you for your attention to this.
CH: Dr. Steven Woolf is a professor of family medicine and population health at Virginia Commonwealth University. We reached him in Fairfax, Virginia.
