cbcradio/thecurrent. Dec. 5,2024
BASEL ADRA: We wanted to show the truth and the status quo that we are living in under this brutal occupation that doesn't hesitate [Music: Theme fading in] to approach us from our homeland by using the machines and using the money from the US, from Canada, from other countries. And we wanted to put this evidence in front of their eyes.
MG: The award-winning documentary, No Other Land, is a portrait of a West Bank community on the brink of demolition. For decades, the people who live there have been forced from their homes to make way for an Israeli military firing range. In 90 seconds, we'll be joined by two of this film's directors, the Palestinian Basel Adra and the Israeli Yuval Abraham, to talk about the making of this film, and how the past 15 months has changed their work and their friendship. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in just a minute. Stay with us.
[Music: Theme]
And a community displaced in the West Bank
Guests: Basel Adra, Yuval Abraham
MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Since 1981, the community of Masafer Yatta in the occupied West Bank has been under an evacuation and demolition order. The Israeli military designated the area as a firing zone. The issue is that Palestinians live there. The documentary, No Other Land, is a portrait of this community's struggle to save their homes and land. The film has been getting rave reviews at film festivals around the world, including the Toronto International Film Festival. This week, it won Best Documentary Prize at the Gotham Awards. It also picked up the best documentary prize at the New York Film Critics Circle Awards. Yesterday, it was nominated for an Independent Spirit Award, and it's also being tipped for an Oscar nomination, despite the fact that you can't see this film in the United States or Canada. The team behind the film is half Palestinian, half Israeli. And two of the filmmakers join us now. Basel Adra is in the West Bank. Yuval Abraham is in Jerusalem. Hello to you both.
BASEL ADRA: Hello to you.
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Hello, hi.
MG: Basel, describe your community for us. What does it look like?
BASEL ADRA: So, we are like small villages are located in Masafer Yatta, 20 small villages in the southern occupied West Bank. Our land became under the Israeli occupation since 1967, since the Israeli military invaded the West Bank. And they improved this occupation by changing it from temporary military controlling or occupying to today to like colonise our land by building settlements and for building the settlements and military bases, Israel always looked for the how to legitimise this to their, to their own laws. Designating Masafer Yatta as a fighting zone or, like, part of it as a state land by the military law or part of the Israeli law is in order to steal our land.
MG: And the land is being the, the land is being used, the government says, for tank training. Is that right?
BASEL ADRA: So, this law, they designated 20 per cent of the West Bank as a, as a fighting zone and 14 out of 20 Masafer Yatta villages as a firing zone. But Yuval, who's just here, found in the state archives, Masafer Yatta first was designated as the fighting zone and earlier in the '80s. And they said this is for the military, military exercises, military trainings and very clear violating international law where occupying country or military can't remove the people, or can't even make military trainings in the occupied territories.
MG: People still live there, though, right? I mean, people are living [BASEL ADRA: Yeah, yeah.] in caves now in the, in that area.
BASEL ADRA: People live in caves and tents and in houses, and they face a lot of demolitions where you see this story in no other land.
MG: Yuval, you're Israeli. Why did you want to get involved in what's happening in Masafer Yatta?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Well, first of all, I think that for me, growing up, I didn't know about this reality of the occupation. And when you see it, it becomes very hard to justify it. And I came and I met Basel and I saw these house demolitions that he's speaking about, how you have any farmers, people living in their villages and anything they do, the military destroys their, their existence there is declared illegal, right? By a system of laws that they cannot influence. They cannot vote. Imagine you cannot vote, and some foreign military tells you that your school and your water well and your existence is illegal because they decided so. And it seemed to me like such a huge atrocity, which I feel responsible for as an Israeli. So, that's the first reason. And the second reason is that I think that as long as the Palestinian people are not free, my people, the Israeli people will not be safe and will never be at all. You cannot control millions of people, place them under a system where they are constantly dominated by military where they keep on losing their lands and being pushed out of their lands, year after year after year, for decades and just continue as normal. And unfortunately, you know, and I'm saying this is an Israeli, unfortunately, states all over the world, including Canada, by the way, have done nothing to change this. I don't think Canada has even recognised Palestine as a state, which would be the most basic step possible. So for me, I think it's clear that this is extremely unjust and nobody would accept it. None of our listeners would accept being controlled by a foreign army, and it has to change. And today, it's, it's more urgent than ever. And we need a political solution and we need leaders to step up to the moment.
MG: When you arrived in the community, somebody, people are shocked you're a journalist. You were there to tell this story and somebody says to you, 'You're a human rights Israeli?' What did you make of that?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: There is a community of human rights organisations in Israel, which is a small community, but it exists. But today, unfortunately, and this, I can say on behalf of the Israeli human rights community, we are very weak and very small and change is not going to come from within right now. I mean, we are unable to stop the starvation of Gaza. We are unable to stop, what? Recently Moshe "Bogie" Ya'alon, a right-wing Israeli who was the head of the Israeli military in 2014, called the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, which is still ongoing. Hundreds of thousands of people are at risk of being killed. Of death, according to the UN, especially in the North and the West Bank, communities like [inaudible] are constantly being erased. The settlers became the soldiers, and they're being pushed out. And we, as the human rights community in Israel, are literally begging the world to place pressure on our country to not, you know, we are really begging the world not. First of all, we need sanctions and we need an arms embargo, and it cannot continue. You cannot continue when you see what is happening. It's not to our benefit as Israelis. And of course, it is not for the benefit of the Palestinian people who are being killed. We need, we need a radical change of foreign policy all over the world so we can move to a place where the Palestinians are free from occupation and foreign control and supremacy. And both the Israelis and the Palestinians can have rights and self-determination and statehood. And if there is no change, I mean, you know, I talked to many people in the human rights community in Israel, and it will not come from within. Not in the next few years. And it's very, very urgent.
MG: Basel, why did you want to document what was happening in your community? You say in the film, 'You started filming when we started to end.' Why did you want to document this?
BASEL ADRA: It's very important to film and to have the evidence. We, as Palestinians see how the world behaves with us. We see how the leaders in the Western world keep calling us the only democracy in the Middle East. And Israel keeps also using its propaganda and exploiting itself and its system as that only democracy in the Middle East. But we wanted to show the truth And the status quo that we are living in under this brutal occupation that doesn't hesitate or doesn't like losing any moment to uproot us from our homeland by using the machines and using the money from the U.S., from Canada, from other countries to, for the weapons, for the settlements, for the colonising project. So, I brought us from our homeland and we wanted to put this evidence in front of their eyes and show them that the apartheid that they are trying to deny is not true. The apartheid exists and we want it. We wanted this to change. This is the goal. Beyond that, we wanted to be able to know what's going on to us. And this is can't continue like that. It should change.
MG: Yuval, how do you describe what the average Israeli citizen understands about what's happened to people like Basel in communities like this? Because the film shows homes being bulldozed. There are also members of the community who are beaten by, by settler groups, by Israeli forces. A man is shot point blank and left paralysed after he tries to stop his home from being bulldozed. How would you describe how people in Israel understand what's happening in a community like this?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Again, I don't want to generalise, but the majority of people in Israel, of the Jewish Israelis, because the Israeli society has Palestinians as well who I think would understand more. But I think the majority of Jewish Israelis don't, don't understand. They don't understand because for two reasons they think. First of all, when you are tasked with enforcing a military occupation, you know, military service is mandatory in Israel. And people for decades have been tasked with enforcing, you know, men and women and enforcing this regime of control. You justify it in your own mind when you are committing. It's very hard to, to, you know, to, to look at an individual through the barrel of a gun for, for decades and not to justify it for yourself. And that's, I think, one justification that, that will happen. And the second thing, we don't, I mean, we don't see. We don't, nobody I mean, the media does not report about it. The mainstream media is not shown the Israeli society an image coming out of Gaza. That is not the images, it's the military films from the drones and from, from the military spokesperson's unit. So, there is, there is a very big bubble. And that empowers, obviously, the Israeli right, which is able to frame everything as this, you know, total security issue with no, never. There is never any context. There is never any talk today about a political solution, about how maybe we can recalibrate the relations between Israelis and Palestinians not to be based on controlling an occupation, but on some form of equality between the two people. That is, that is, that is today gone. I mean, that is a discourse that maybe existed in the Israeli society in the '90s, I think largely due to Netanyahu's policies. But, but not only him. Any talk of, any talk of the occupation is now is, it does not happen.
[cross-talk]
MG: You go, you go on Israeli television programs and you're attacked saying that the people say that you are against Jewish people for, for what you're reporting.
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I used to be invited to some Israeli TV channels since October 7th. You know, the space for that is narrowed even further. So, so, I'm, I'm less invited today, but I do get attacked by some Israelis who claim that I'm against Israelis or against Jewish people. Again, I think that the two people are connected. And I think that the security of my people is, is fundamentally rooted in the security of the Palestinian people. And the idea that, you know, you can kill 17,000 children and somehow do that in the name of security is not only false, it's also completely illogical and wrong and atrocious. And I think realising that for me is it is, it's maybe, maybe it sounds basic to some people, but, but really, this is this is a fundamental realisation. Like, we are connected to one another and what we do to the other side echoes back to us. And, and I just don't think it's sustainable to continue in the way that what we are doing.
MG: Basel, what do you what do you want Israelis to understand about your community?
BASEL ADRA: To be honest, I don't think Israelis understand what they are doing to us. I hope that they will, they will stop what they are doing to us. And they stop supporting their military like, by committing this to us. I think most of the Israelis understand what's going on in Gaza and the West Bank, and they should not, they should not support it. They should, they should reject it.
MG: The filming for, for this documentary wrapped up right before the atrocities on the 7th of October of last year. How do you think, Basel, that impacts the ability of this film to be seen by audiences? It doesn't have a distributor. It's won awards. Was, you know, well-received at the Film Festival in Toronto, just won a big award in New York, and yet it does not have a distributor. How do you think what happened on the 7th of October has shaped the reception to it?
BASEL ADRA: Well, it's said that the movie didn't have a distributor in the U.S. because the movie have been received well at festivals and this week we won like the Gotham Awards and, you know, Berlinale and [inaudible], important awards, also other many awards from other festivals. And the movie found the distributors and it was a challenge to find also in Germany. But in the end of the day, we found some ones. But it's sad that in the U.S. still nobody is like, people need to, to be brave because the movie is, our work between me and Yuval and others, people like us and our circuit really work and begging the world to change what's going on, and the only change can come from outside, from the US and from that, from Europe and from Canada that they should take a position. And we worked all this years. We really wanted to achieve a change before arriving at the days like October 7th, sadly, that we are right in that moment, and since one, since, since 14 months, like witnessing a genocide, it doesn't stop.
MG: Yuval, how do you think the past year... You talked about, you know, what happens when you go or used to go on Israeli television, and now you can't do that in your own country. How do you think what happened over the past year: 1,200 Israelis killed, hostages still held in Gaza. How has that changed how Israelis think about Palestinians and, and whether they are, they're receptive at all to the ideas that are presented in a film like this?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: So, look, generally speaking, when historically, when faced with atrocities committed against Israeli civilians like October 7th, like the hostages that need to be released, the society moves to the right and entrenches even further the military occupation and apartheid and commits atrocities against Palestinians, which then causes the Palestinian society to move further to the right. I mean, I mean, you spoke rightfully about the atrocities of October 7th. And, you know, and you mentioned the killed Israeli children and civilians. But I wonder, I mean, would you feel as free to use this word when referring to Gaza, where 400 times as many children were killed and if the unjustifiable killing of so many Israeli civilians pushed the Israeli society so much to the right, then what is the killing of tens of thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians that has been going on for months and months doing to the Palestinian society? I ask myself. So, I think that our film is important because it looks for a way out of this. It, Basel spoke to this just now. I mean, I mean, we don't want to see civilians being killed and slaughtered. And the way to prevent that. The way to stabilise the relations between Israelis and Palestinians has to be a political solution. And I ask myself again, I'm sorry to bring this up again, because this is not something new. Like, why did we have to reach to this point to have the world talking about it and why still, Canada and United States have not recognised even Palestine as a state? I mean, the kind of political solutions that we are talking about is one that is based on, of the, the Palestinians deserve to be free and that the Palestinians and the Israelis can both have their rights and statehood and what they need. But when you are preventing that, and this is maybe the most important point: When you have blocked every single path for Palestinian freedom of occupation, which is what any person would want, when you blocked the legal path, when the U.S. vetoes the UN Security Council, when the Palestinian human rights organisations are declared terrorist organisations, when you cannot protest in the West Bank because any protest is illegal, and when Canada does not recognise Palestine as a state, when you block every single path, the likelihood of atrocities and violence, which is never justified, becomes much, much higher. So people like us on the left are really, again, asking the world to change their foreign policy so there can be a political solution.
MG: How do you understand, and this picks up on that, how do you understand the reaction and the reception to the film? I asked Basel about the lack of a distribution. The film has been shown at film festivals. When it was shown at the Berlin Film Festival, it won the best documentary prize. The German Minister of Culture said she was only clapping for you, not for Basel, and that there were accusations of anti-Semitism levelled against the film and its supporters. You said to stand on German soil as the son of Holocaust survivors and call for a ceasefire, then to be labelled as anti-Semitic is not only outrageous, it's also literally putting Jewish lives in danger. How do you understand as, as an Israeli, how do you understand the reception to the film?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, you know, being, being in Berlin and me and Basel both spoke about basically very similar way that we are speaking now in this interview. And the word anti-Semitism for me carries a lot of weight. It carries a lot of weight because my family, as you said, was, was killed, much of it in the Holocaust. And also because anti-Semitism is rising today on the right and on the left. And it's a very real phenomenon that I care about. And when it's used to silence people who are criticising Israel or criticising the occupation or just to block our film like, like as, as what has happened in Germany, it's not only outrageous because it, it's a tool to silence Palestinians and, and Israelis apparently who are critical of what the state of Israel is doing. But it also empties the word out of meaning, because if you label everything as anti-Semitism all the time, then nothing is anti-Semitism, then the word just completely loses its meaning. And I think that's, it's not a coincidence that this is happening in Germany. And I think Germany completely misunderstands its responsibility towards Jewish people and the Israelis. I mean, it equates support for Israelis or for Jewish people with supporting what the Israeli government and the Israeli state has been doing, which is a prolonged, prolonged occupation and apartheid. And I think it's the complete opposite. If you care about Jewish people, if you care about Israelis, if you care about international law, you have to respect it. And once the international law organs are telling us, what the ICJ told us is that the occupation is illegal. And what the ICC told us, the International Criminal Court is that Israeli leaders have committed the crimes against humanity and war crimes alongside Hamas leaders, and they need to be arrested. And the fact that Israel is now waging a war against the organs of international law with the sometimes passive and sometimes active support of Germany and, of course, the United States and, and I guess, also Canada, should terrify us because international law is important. And the organs of international law were created as a result of the horrific atrocities committed because of anti-Semitism in the Second World War.
MG: Just the last point on this. I mean, you faced death threats because of this. This comes up in the film where somebody says to you, 'You're on Facebook. Somebody will come and pay you a visit,' but you face death threats for, for what you've said and your involvement in this film, right?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Yeah. I mean, I face, me and my family. My mom had to leave the house for a while in February. I think it shows you the position, you know, the amount of space for criticism today in the Israeli society, which it is significantly narrowed after October 7th. But again, I have to say, I am today not in physical danger. Like, I think, thinking of, I'm talking to you now from Jerusalem. Basel is in Masafer Yatta in the West Bank. I am able to travel. I can go to my house. I don't have to sleep every night with my shoes on because I'm afraid that the military will invade and I will have to run. And this is how Basel has to live. So, so again, I understand. I have, I have a lot of privilege also as a Jewish-Israeli. And, and I don't feel I am, I am now a victim of this. Like, I will continue to get together with Basel, together with other Palestinians and Israelis. We see a different kind of future based on international law and justice and equality. We will continue this, this struggle.
MG: Basel, at one point in the film, you tell Yuval to get used to failing, that he shouldn't expect to solve what's happening to your community in a few days' time. How do you think about the scope of time when it comes to your fight in your community?
BASEL ADRA: I think the same. I certainly like, and especially with Trump being elected today, we are in very like, the future is a bit clear. There's going to be more nightmare than what we are living in today, especially the people whose pointing and putting in positions, saying there is no such thing called the West Bank. And this is not the settlements, it is Jewish neighbourhoods in here. So, this is like completely like supporting to ethnic cleansing us from our homes and to, to build and to expand the settlements and the outposts. We wish we could speak about optimistic and positively about what's going on. But as you, as you can see in the news, we are just living in very, very harsh days. I don't know, I know what we can hope for our future and on what we can, what really exactly what happened.
MG: How do you see your friendship? You're collaborators, but you're also friends, Basel. And I just wonder and this is a big part of the film: A Palestinian and an Israeli working together and that they become friends and collaborators. How do you, how do you see how the last year has impacted your own friendship?
BASEL ADRA: From the beginning, I think we were very clear and we see each other as a human beings and as equal human beings, and we should live in equal, equal situation and nobody controls the other, the other, the other people. I mean, this is not unique, but unfortunately, the people like us, our other friends in this circuit, we are powerless. The problem is we are begging the people with power to do their, their own job and their own action to stop this because we are powerless. We don't have power to change this. And we wish we could have the power to change what's going on and to end all this violence and to live equal in this land. This is friendship, and this relationship between Israeli and Palestinian can't give the people outside false hope. The people have responsibility. This is their money, and their countries that empowering Netanyahu and these governments and this is should not go, goes on. This is should stop. The occupation should end and a political solution should be achieved, and only when this governments start to take positions and actions in order to achieve this political change.
MG: Yuval, what about for you? How do you see your friendship with Basel after, after this last year?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Well, I have to say, I, I agree with every word Basel said. And not only because we are friends, because I think it's very wise politically. And he recognises some of the fundamental roots of the violence. And I think our understanding, our shared values held us together and are holding us together. And I feel now even more strongly. It's not, it's not as if because an Israeli was murdered or because a Palestinian was murdered that I am suddenly going to be angry is best said. On the contrary, like we knew, we were warning against this. The entire human rights community in Palestine and in Israel was warning that if we don't end the occupation, if there is no political solution, then, then we will reach where we are reaching. And again, it's not to justify any kind of violence. And every person has agency and over their actions. But we were warning exactly against this. And it just makes me more really heartbreaking. Like, I cried so much over this past year, losing people, friends to both, both Israelis and Palestinians and people that I knew. And, and I'm really angry that that we had to reach this point and that the world is still not taking the, the action that is needed to take to, to begin changing, the change that we need.
MG: What do you hope a film like this, and the work that you have done with Yuval, what's that message that it could send to other people about, about recalibrating that relationship and finding some, some degree of peace and justice, do you think?
BASEL ADRA: I hope, I hope at least we will, we will succeed and manage to, to change individuals around the world in Canada and the U.S. and Europe, individuals would see the truth of what's going on and they will join our, our struggle and solidarity, I mean, to protest, to stress on their governments, to do the right thing. I hope people would understand and not just after understanding what would take action, because this movie is kind of a call to action for, for the people, for the audience who would see it, for not to remain silent because not just, again, not the commentary that showing something in the past, but showing a reality that's going on.
MG: Yuval, what about for you? You say in the film it would be nice to have stability and then Basel could come and visit you. Do you think that is going to happen? Do you think that relationship will be recalibrated?
YUVAL ABRAHAM: I don't know. Now, I'm very much afraid. You know, I think we're in a situation of urgency in, where hundreds of thousands of people are going to perhaps die in Gaza. I mean, that's what's at stake right now. So, these visions that we had about recalibrating and about, you know, whatever you want to call it, a two-state solution, a confederation, the position where the occupation ends and there is some kind of equality. I mean, that's further and further away. Right now, we're speaking about people who are being starved to death and are not receiving food and water. And every day, we have another 100 people killed. Right now, it's, it's about survival. It's not even about, you know, having a political solution that's so much further away. Like, I think we should all be focussed on that right now. That is, that is the most urgent thing.
MG: It's a very powerful film. I'm glad to talk to you both about it. Thank you very much.
YUVAL ABRAHAM: Thank you.
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